Matt Hilton worked in the private security industry for 18 years, then as a cop for four. He quit his career as a police officer with Cumbria Constabulary to pursue his love of writing tight, cinematic American-style thrillers. His Joe Hunter series of books are on the shelves with more to come. He has just brought out the first ACTION: Pulse Pounding Tales. It’s a great collection of hard core crime writing from a range of talent including Paul Brazill, Absolutely Kate, Graham Smith, Col Bury, K.A. Laity and myself. Matt met me at The Slaughterhouse, where we talked about the appeal of vigilantes and jury nobbling.

What advice would you give to yourself as a younger man?

If I could go back and speak to my younger self, I’d tell myself not to be so shy, and go for my dreams. I know it sounds a little pat, but I used to live my life thinking of how my actions would impact on those around me, and preferred to hold back and go with the flow. I missed quite a few opportunities along the way as a result. But then, maybe fate does exist and things were meant to happen the way they did and on the timescale they did, so who am I to worry now? I did all right in the end – I think.

Tell us about your Joe Hunter series.

I often find it difficult to describe the Joe Hunter books in a few words, but I’ll have a go. They’re called ‘crime thrillers’ in the UK, or ‘suspense thrillers’ in the USA. They’re not your typical crime fiction novel. Hunter isn’t a cop, private eye or even amateur sleuth. He’s an ex soldier, now loose in the world with a strong compulsion to put the world’s bad guys to rights. Many readers rightly or wrongly (dependent on your take), make comparisons with Lee Child’s superb creation, Jack Reacher. It’s true that they’re both tough guy, ex soldiers, and that they both take their own form of uncompromising vigilante justice to the world’s villains, but there are as many differences as likenesses. Reacher is a thoughtful, keen-minded Investigator, with a mean head butt and cigarette punch, Hunter on the other hand is driven by impulse and can sometimes be a little hot-headed and trusts a lot on daring and luck in battle. The series kicked off with Dead Men’s Dust – shortlisted for the International Thriller Writers’ Debut Novel Award 2009 – and saw Hunter – a Brit – heading off to the USA in search of his wayward step-brother, John. Unbeknown to Hunter, John had taken up on his minor criminal ways and in doing so had attracted the attention of vengeance-seeking mobsters, and worse – a bone collecting serial killer named Tubal Cain. Hunter, along with his old comrade in arms, Jared ‘Rink’ Rington, enters a chase to save John before one or more of his enemies catch up.

In the USA, four books in the Hunter series have been published, while in the UK, we’re ahead of the game a bit, with book 7 – No Going Back – published this past February, as well as a collection of short Hunter stories – Six of the Best – released as an eBook collection. The books are action-packed, and when I write them, one of the most important factors for me is pace. I’m a fan of Robert Crais, John Connolly and the aforementioned Mr Child, but the Hunter novels have been inspired by some of my earlier reading experiences, primarily the so-called ‘Men’s Action Books’ of the 1970s and early 1980s. I won’t win any prizes for literary excellence, but I might win a few smiles and cheers as readers join Hunter for the ride.

Do you think that the vigilante appeals because readers feel justice is commonly denied to people?

As an ex Cop, I should answer no. There should be no place in a civilised world for vigilantism. But as someone who has also seen how hampered by red tape and bureaucracy our police forces find themselves, then who can blame people getting pissed off when repeat offenders seemingly get away with crime time after time. Many of us has wished that we had it in us to give the local drug dealers a good slap and tell them to sling their hook off our neighbourhood, but we can’t. Otherwise we become the one that ‘the law’ turns on and throws us in the very cell the bad guy should have been in a long time ago.

In fiction, I think the vigilante act isn’t frowned upon, because deep down we’d like to think that if placed in a similar situation we’d stand up for what we felt was right, and we can actually cheer for the hero of the story when they put the real villains in their place.
I’m not advocating vigilantism, but I am saying people should stand up for themselves. Criminals are in a minority, and it’s only through fear and intimidation that they rule. Many times as a cop I heard people complaining about certain individuals and that the police should do something about them. But when asked those same complainants weren’t prepared to stand up and have their voices heard for fear of retribution. It’s understandable, but if enough people took a stand then the criminals would no longer hold the power and would be shown up for the petty bullies that they are. Often, I found, a neighbourhood would have one particularly bad family, from whom most of the problems originated. The other thousands of families shouldn’t fear one bunch of ingrates. But the law – who ironically can’t touch the criminals because of a lack of willing witnesses – seemed unable to touch them and their legend of invulnerability grew. It was nonsense, and I often thought to myself, if the gloves came off, and I gave them a good slap, that would be the problem sorted.

These days, I do my slapping on the page, of course. Joe Hunter is my big raw knuckled hand, and yes, I think readers do cheer because they feel a form of justice has been served.

How much do you think jury nobbling affects peoples’ willingness to act as witnesses, especially when you juxtapose the sentence served to Tony Martin and the case of Kenny Noye, even after he bragged about stabbing a policeman to death?

To be honest, I’ve no experience dealing with jury nobbling, albeit I did on occasion deal with witness intimidation, which I suppose is the same thing on a smaller scale. I think it’s the perception that criminals will come back and get revenge on witnesses that makes people hesitant to put their signatures on a witness statement. Usually the fear of the perceived retribution is enough to put witnesses off testifying, and I’ve seen witnesses withdraw their statements a few days after a crime had occurred. Usually this was as a result of having had a few days to think about the consequences, and their initial anger at being a victim or witness to someone’s suffering has worn off and doubt has began to creep in.

In the case of Tony Martin, who shot dead a teenage burglar, I believe that the system wanted to make an example of him: the last the government wants is for the public to take the law into their own hands, because it shows them up for losing the fight against crime. If Martin had been a middle or upper class gent, I suspect he’d have been treated differently. Because he was a bit of a recluse, and allegedly a ‘bit strange’ he was a likely candidate for them to throw to the dogs and put the fear of God into anyone who decided to follow suit. In Kenny Noye’s case, I think he got away with the murder of the policeman (stabbing him to death in self-defence?) because it was far easier to guarantee a conviction on the Brinks Mat money laundering scam he was involved in, which he was subsequently jailed for. Sadly, anything to do with money seems to take more precedent in the law’s mind than it does the sanctity of life. By law, I’m talking literally. In general the police officers I knew and worked alongside were decent people who wanted to help good people have a better quality of life. They were usually as frustrated as the victims as to how criminals seemed to be protected by the law. Lets not forget, a defence lawyer/solicitor/barrister makes more money than a prosecutor, and invariably all the best lawyers/solicitors and barristers end up working on behalf of the bad guys. Sad but true. There were times when I was a cop that I’d arrest a criminal, take them to the nick, and they were back out on the street again before I’d even finished writing up my notebook. There has to be something wrong there, but that’s the way things are these days. Like I mentioned earlier, I prefer that my crime fighting days are over and are now all on the page.

Tell us about your time editing the brilliant magazine Thrillers Killers N Chillers.

I think it’s apt that I give a little background to Thrillers, Killers ‘N’ Chillers, and how it came into being. When I was first contracted to write the Joe Hunter thriller series, it was for a five-book contract, and was somewhat of a record breaking deal for a debut thriller author. Because of this it made the news. As a result a lot of aspiring authors got in touch with me thinking that perhaps I had the lucky formula for getting published. To be honest, I was no different from anyone else in that I had a hefty dose of luck on my side. As it was I was getting loads of requests asking if I’d read people’s work and to give feedback to them. With the best will in the world it was a task I couldn’t possibly complete, not having a punishing publishing schedule of two books a year to fulfil, but I did want to help those authors out and pay back some of my own good fortune. I set up TKnC, and invited authors to submit their work to the site, where it could be shared and readers and other authors could help by offering constructive feedback and support. At first only a few stories trickled in, and things were manageable: then the floodgates opened. Thankfully, I’d made a good friend in Col Bury, who was an aspiring author himself at the time, and I asked Col to come onboard and help me out. With Col halving the workload it helped a great deal, and together we established the site and began to gain a good following.

However, sometimes a good idea can prove too successful, and the deluge of stories coming in began to impact on our own writing commitments. Thankfully again, we’d made a great friend in Lee Hughes, a terrific horror writer, and Lee came onboard to help. At this time we broke the submissions process up so that the correct stories went to the correct editor: Col took crime, Lee horror, and me thrillers and everything else. The site saw terrific hit numbers, and some brilliant stories, and was nominated and won a couple of awards along the way. Some of the authors also won awards for their work, and some literary agents began cruising the site checking out the talent, and actually offering some of the contributors representation. A little while back, other commitments meant Lee Hughes taking a backseat for a while, but another terrific talent in the shape of Lily Childs stepped in to fill the horror editor slot. The site continues to go from strength to strength and has now become a respected webzine for those seeking fresh genre short stories and flash fiction.

Through the process of running and editing TKnC I’ve met some great authors, and read some terrific stories, and hopefully helped a few authors on the right path to publication and careers. In the last few months I’ve been a bit overwhelmed by work and if I hadn’t had Col, Lee and Lily onboard I’m not sure what would have become of the site. But it’s going strong, and I foresee more awards and agent representations in the future. Over all, I’ve loved being involved and have no intention of backing off from the site any time soon.

What do you make of the E Book revolution?

I’ll probably sound really contradictory here, but that’s the way I feel about eBooks in general. As an aspiring author, all I wanted was to see my by line on a real honest to God printed book. I spent the best part of thirty years learning the trade, writing the books, sending them to agents and publishers and getting continuous knock backs and rejections. After thirty-odd years of ‘learning the trade’ I finally got my lucky break and was picked up for publication by not one but two of the biggest publishing houses in the world. To say I was stunned and not a little flabbergasted is a supreme understatement, but it was what I seen as the culmination of a dream. I was tremendously lucky. Lucky to find the right agent, who had the right contact, who was looking for a certain kind of book, that thankfully I’d just written. But at much the same time as I was signing contracts the global financial meltdown struck, and as with many industries, the publishing industry took a real kick in the dooda’s. Book chains were closing down over night, independents were shutting their doors, libraries were threatened with closure, and even the supermarket chains decided they could no longer compete with the online book retailers and dropped most of the lines they used to carry. The knock-on effect was that anyone involved in the production or sale of traditional books took a savaging. At around about the same time, the buzz words were eReaders and Kindles and – heaven forbid – electronic books and I took an immediate and lasting dislike to the entire notion. I’m one of those readers who loves to hold a real book in my hands, not read from a glorified Etchasketch. I hated the notion altogether and for long enough whenever I heard the words Amazon or Kindle it was enough to make me spit.

But…a year or so back, having spent the last eight months or so writing a horror thriller, which – due to such lame excuses from publishers as “We wouldn’t know how to market such a book: is it a thriller or a horror?” – wasn’t picked up for publication, I decided to look into  this upstart idea of ‘publishing it myself as an eBook’. To be honest, I wasn’t sure about the entire process, and still hated the idea. But I wasn’t so blind that I didn’t recognise something that was happening in the world. People were beginning to read ‘genre’ writing, the kind of books that didn’t appear in the bookshops because those in charge didn’t know how to market them. It finally hit me that here was an avenue to get writing out to readers who were willing to take a chance on something new/different. It seems that some people who decide to pick up an eReader are willing to take a chance on something off the wall, and not follow the trend of the latest Harry Potter or tattooed girl or Scandinavian whatever. I tested the eBook world by publishing ‘Dominion’, best described as ‘Alien meets 28 Days Later’, followed soon after by another horror thriller set against World War 2, called ‘Darkest Hour’, which has been described as being like Van Helsing meets Saving Private Ryan. I wouldn’t say that either eBook has seen tremendous sales success (except for the three days I gave a copy away free funnily enough) but being greedy for readership, i was happy that the books were out there in one form or another.

eBooks have brought about a revolution in publishing – good or bad – and I think it’s here to stay. I’d be a fool not to embrace it. I was told some statistics that anyone born after 1996 hasn’t known a world without mobile phones and home computers, not to mention all the other gizmos and devices that they’ve subsequently grown up with: this generation of people are used to reading from electronic devices, and when I thought about it, it’s obvious that they will be comfortable reading books the same way. In the next few years, the eBook market will continue to grow and grow. Sadly that might mean that the traditional form of publishing ‘paper’ books might continue to decline. it saddens me, but then I’m a writer, and if it means that I have to find an avenue to get my writing out to readers then I won’t complain if it happens to be via reading devices.

Here’s a strange situation: My paper books sell moderately well; my eBooks sell moderately well, and though i haven’t the actual figures in front of me suspect that they’re roughly about the same. So, I took an idea for a short collection of Joe Hunter stories to my publisher, with a view to publishing them as an ebook. The collection is called Joe Hunter: Six of the best. What I’ve found is that people who might not have purchased a full length novel have taken a chance on the short stories. As a reaction to that, they’ve discovered my writing and then gone on to buy my novels, in whatever form they fancy most. So, I can’t knock the ebook idea there. it has actually helped build my readership in a way i couldn’t have hoped for via the traditional publishing route.

So, having been a total Luddite at the beginning, and spitting at and decrying the idea of electronic books, I’ve actually realised that it makes sense to move with the times, and embrace the idea.

I mentioned earlier about people now having the opportunity to read ‘genre’ books. I love crime fiction, I love horror, but I also love the old ‘action books’ that were popular back in the 1970s and early 1980s. Having looked around at the eBook world, I saw that there were others out there with a like mind, and I saw an opportunity to bring back that particular genre to a whole new readership. I thought it would be cool to put out a call for submissions and put together a collection of short action stories, and the response was brilliant. Now here’s the truth: if I took the idea of an anthology of this type to a traditional publisher I know exactly what the answer would have been when I offered publication rights: A big fat resounding NO. People don’t buy short story collections anymore apparently (well, not from bookshops they don’t, but I have a feeling that’s because there are so few short story collections traditionally published). However, I know that isn’t true when it comes to eBooks. Anthologies and collections sell well as eBooks. I think it’s because of the time constraints on people these days, in that they like their reading to be in manageable five or ten minute sittings and short stories hit the right spot. So, I’ve gone ahead and published ACTION: Pulse Pounding Tales Vol 1, which is out now as an eBook. The response to my call for submissions was brilliant, and the collection is something special, in my opinion. I have stories from some top authors, including best-selling thriller author Stephen Leather to name drop just one.

I will say I still prefer a paper book, and will do my damnedest to secure a traditional publishing contract every time. But I’m coming round to the idea of eBooks too.

Told you I was a bit contradictory.

What are you working on now?

Some people might think I’m nuts to have taken on the workload I have recently, but here goes…

Having just finished editing and designing ACTION: Pulse pounding Tales Vol 1, I’m working on book 10 in my Joe Hunter crime thriller series. It’s early days with this one and I’m just pulling a few ideas together and writing the introductory chapters in a rough draft.

Also, I’m planning on starting a second ongoing series, if I can entice a publisher, and am hard at work writing an action-packed thriller that has elements of sci-fi and time travel thrown in for good measure. This is the first in a planned ongoing series featuring a balls-to-the-wall action figure called James Rembrandt. It’s kind of early days to say too much about the Rembrandt books, but fans of Joe Hunter won’t be disappointed. If anything, the action’s even bigger and ballsier than ever.

I’ve just completed writing a 10k words Joe Hunter short story and am about to embark on another. Both of these stories should be released first as eBooks, and then later as special additions to future Joe Hunter novels.

Next up, I’ll be writing a 25k word novella for inclusion in Steven Savile’s brilliant ‘Viral’ series of techno-thrillers, currently doing great guns as eBooks through Barnes and Noble, and coming soon to Kindle.

Also, I’ve written an introduction to Black Dogs Books’ upcoming Dan Fowler, G-Man book, and have two short stories coming out in Paul D. Brazill’s ‘True Brit Grit’ anthology and Weldon Burge’s ‘Uncommon Assassin’s’ anthology.

All of this doesn’t include the publicity I’ll be doing for my next Joe Hunter book. I’ve paperback editions of both ‘No Going Back’ and ‘Judgment and Wrath’ to promote here in the UK and in the USA this summer. So, you might say I’m kind of busy. But, hey, it’s what I love doing so I’m not complaining.

Do you see a future for the traditional crime novel with no law and order?

Although it appears that law and order is going out of the window, it’s only a perception, a zeitgeist, and not wholly true. There’ll always be a form of law and order in one form or another (unless we fall into total anarchy when the Mayan prophesy proves true, or the promised Zombie apocalypse hits) and by virtue there’ll always be crime novels. They’ve been around for centuries and I can’t see them disappearing any time soon. People enjoy crime novels, it’s their way of facing their demons in a safe (and enjoyable) manner, so I don’t see the genre going away. What I do think we’ll see is a broadening of the various sub-genres in the crime novel world, and what’s popular at the moment (Scandinavian crime) will be superseded by another (hopefully the crime thriller, eh?).

Graham Greene said writers have a piece of ice in their hearts. What do you make of his observation?

To write the kind of stories crime writer’s do, it’s important to have that slither of ice in their hearts. It allows them to conjure the kind of scenes necessary to make their story telling dramatic and authentic. It would be difficult to convey the mind of a serial killer or hit man for instance, if all that you thought about were bunny rabbits hopping around flower-garlanded fields. Of course, that doesn’t make the author a monster; they only have the capacity to think like a murderer for instance. But alongside that shard of ice, there should be boundless empathy. It’s important that the slither of ice is balanced by good winning out. That’s where the author’s compassion must come in. I think we’re all capable of ‘thinking’ about committing murder or doing violence – it’s human nature. But what we also have is a moral compass that tells (most of) us, that those impulses are wrong and we don’t act out the darker siders of our imaginations. This is the dark font of an author’s imagination, which they can tap when required, but they also have the capacity to cap it when necessary.

Tell us something that your readers might not know about you.

Although I’m portrayed as a roughty-tufty action thriller author, I am very laid back and shy by nature. I love nothing more than a quiet life, and my great pleasure is lounging around on the porch of a log cabin on the shore of a Scottish Loch. I’m kind of an Old Fashioned Romantic, and still shed a tear at the end of the movie ‘It’s A Wonderful Life’, or when King Kong falls to his death from the Empire State Building.

Thank you Matt for an informative and perceptive interview.

Links:

Author website

Thrillers, Killers ‘n’ Chillers

Pick up a copy of ACTION: Pulse Pounding Tales Volume 1 at Amazon UK and US

Visit the ACTION Facebook page here.

Check out No Going Back (Joe Hunter 7) at Amazon UK and US

Richard Thomas was the winner of the ChiZine Publications 2009 “Enter the World of Filaria” contest. His short story “Maker of Flight” was chosen by Filaria author Brent Hayward and Bram Stoker Award-Winning editor Brett Alexander Savory. It has since gone on to also win at Jotspeak, beating out over 200 entries. His debut novel, a neo-noir thriller entitled Transubstantiate (Otherworld Publications) was released in July of 2010. He met me at The Slaughterhouse, where we talked about identity and transgression.

Do you think there is too much focus on genre in the publishing industry?

That’s a great question. Part of me thinks yes, that we need to just focus on work that is quality fiction (or poetry or non-fiction) and not worry about labels. But then again, part of me feels like the best way to get your work in front of the right people (fans, agents, and pressess) is to put a label on it, so that people know how to find it.

For example, if you’re a fan of horror, you know that Stephen King is a writer that creates dark fiction. You have certain expectations about his work. But if somebody were to write a novel that was indeed horrific, but not call it horror, how would you find it? Is Cormac McCarthy’s The Road horror? Or it is literary fiction? What about William Gay’s “The Paperhanger?” It seems like the literary elite, the academics, they want to claim whatever work is good, whatever writing excels, gets attention, wins awards. If the language is there. It’s confusing, I’ll admit. But I do know that I’ve called my work “neo-noir,” a sub-genre of hardboiled and noir. I’ve also called it “transgressive.” So people have come to expect dark, contemporary fiction with a bit of anarchy and chaos. In film, you’d probably just call it drama. But isn’t there a big difference between the drama of David Lynch and Martin Scorcese, between David Fincher and Steven Spielberg?

You have all of these circles, these groups of fans. Horror fans will get together at their convention, as will crime writers, both noir and thrillers, and of course, there is always AWP for the literary minded. I think that each group of fans, they fight for their people, their authors. They don’t care so much about the label, only that they love reading Peter Straub or Dennis Lehane or Jonathan Franzen and they like to hang out with like-minded people. AWP is always interesting because they have panels on this very subject, with people like Brian Evenson, Stephen Graham Jones, and others defending the work of authors that write straight genre, and even the right to include everything from vampires and werewolves to the supernatural and magical, in their fiction. A good story is a good story—tense, dramatic, inclusive, emotional. In many ways the gaps are closing, with authors populating the pages of The New Yorker with science fiction, fantasy, and horror—but for some reason only certain voices are allowed these transgressions, and have somehow been elevated to literary status. George Saunders, Joyce Carol Oates, Jennifer Egan—three authors that I enjoy—they’ve found a way to make it work. And that gives me hope.

Do you think the E Book has revolutionised the publishing industry and do you think it is a good thing?

Definitely. And in many ways. First, unless you found a title at a used bookstore or garage sale, where could you buy a new or gently read book for $1? And, the ability to take your books with you wherever you go, that’s a big plus. AND, the ability for the common man to get his book up on Amazon or Smashwords without a press or agent, that’s probably made a lot of dreams come true. BUT, I do think that a lot of very average novels are getting published, either by self-publishing, or eBook only presses, or other places. It’s tricky. I actually tend to make more on an eBook sale then I do on a paperback sale. Some presses are paying 50-80% of the eBook sales price. So if you price it right (and that’s the tricky part, yeah?) you could net anywhere from .50-$4 or MORE per title. Most traditional presses pay anywhere from 10-25% of the net price of a paperback.

I’m still a bit old fashioned. I like my books to be in print, to touch them, hold them, to look at the covers and spines, as they sit in my library. I collect books, including foreign editions of titles, and you just can’t do that on an eReader. The Japanese covers for Stephen King, for example, are just amazing. It’s a very tactile experience, and one I hope we never lose entirely. When the iPod first came out I didn’t get that either, until I realized I could take my entire music library with me wherever I went, and it was in a very small device.

I don’t want the publishing industry to lose the intimacy of print books. I love walking into a library, or a big bookstore, or especially, a cool used bookstore. I love hanging out at Myopic Books and Quimby’s in Wicker Park, a hip area just west of downtown Chicago. You can’t eliminate that experience. Or, I guess, you CAN eliminate it, but that would be a shame.

There is something cold about the whole eBook thing. But it does seem to be getting books in the hands of people, even if it takes .99 prices or even a FREE title.

For example, my first book, Transubstantiate. It’s a neo-noir, speculative thriller. Kind of Lost meets The Truman Show with a dash of The Prisoner. This was my first book, and I sold it to a new, small press and they didn’t quite do everything they said they would. Sales were not what I wanted them to be. But we just did a giveaway last weekend, and I was SHOCKED to see that 1,700 people downloaded the title when we gave it away the eBook for FREE. Will anyone read it? I don’t know, but that’s still exciting, great word of mouth. It also translated into 60+ eBook sales over the following few days. No idea on print yet, but that’s probably better than any previous quarter I’ve had, as far as eBook sales on this title.

So, I have this strange love/hate relationship with the eBook. It seems like a necessity, like being on Twitter and Facebook, and I think it will certainly be a large percentage of sales in the future. I just hope it remains one part of the equation, the experience, and not the whole enchilada.

Man, now I’m hungry.

Is there a particular event that has changed you and influenced your writing?

Great question. I think a couple things really changed the way I thought about writing, the way that I wrote, and my place in the world of literature.

First, I read Chuck Palahniuk. He really made me feel like there was new work going on in the world. I saw the movie Fight Club, which lead me to his body of work. I started with Survivor and Choke and was hooked. I plowed through everything he wrote, and was blown away by his unique perspective. I haven’t been a huge fan of his stuff since Rant, though. I did like Snuff, but I miss the work that is more like his earlier writing. He lead me to a bunch of other transgressive authors, like Will Christopher Baer, Craig Clevenger and Stephen Graham Jones.

The second thing was probably reading those three authors. Call it neo-noir, or transgressive, but it was the literary equivalent of watching the films of David Lynch, Christopher Nolan and David Fincher. I was blown away. Reading the Baer trilogy really helped me to develop my own voice. My next book, Disintegration, is the closest I’ve gotten to the world of Baer, and also, that of Clevenger and SGJ.

The third was taking a class at The Cult with Clevenger. I was a big fan of his work, and decided that if he read my work and told me that I didn’t suck, maybe I’d start writing again. I’m 44 but have only been writing seriously for about four years. I took a long break when I fell into the world of advertising as a graphic designer and art director. Studying with Craig, I felt like maybe I had some talent. And when I started pushing in that direction, towards writing, good things started to happen. One of the stories I wrote under Craig’s tutelage was “Stillness,” which he pushed me to send out. It got rejected a few times, maybe ten or more, but was eventually taken by the people at Cemetery Dance (Brian Freeman and Richard Chizmar) for Shivers VI. It wasn’t until the book came out that I realized that Stephen King and Peter Straub were in it—two of my literary heroes. I was blown away. I felt like I had broken through, a little bit. And I started to take my work seriously after that. A novel, a few contest wins, fifty stories published and four Pushcart nominations last year, and writing has taken over my life. In a good way. It’s exciting and fulfilling unlike anything I’ve ever done.

Tell us about your next novel.

The one I’m shopping right now is called Disintegration. It’s a neo-noir, transgressive thriller. It’s a tragedy for sure, probably one of the darkest things I’ve written, but it isn’t without hope or love. Hell, Romeo and Juliet was a double suicide, right? It’s a combination of Dexter and Falling Down. A man loses everything, sees his family die in a car accident right in front of him, and starts to fall apart. He is off the grid, lost, and he starts doing odd jobs for this guy named Vlad. That escalates into him killing people, the worst of society (pedophiles, rapists, drug dealers) but over time he starts to question everything, what he’s really doing. Is it noble work, righting the wrongs that random violence inflicts on the world? Or is there more going on.

I’ve got a sample chapter up at my blog, if you want to take a look. I’ve got one offer on it, and some interest from some agents—I’m waiting to hear back from a few other presses as well. It’s my baby, though, and I’m a little protective about it. It’ll take the right person to produce it, to get behind it, and maybe I’ve found that person, that press, maybe not. We’ll see. I’m reminded of the bleak feeling I had at the end of Requiem for a Dream, or even the shock and pain of the Seven. It’s a wild ride, and I think entertaining on many levels—pure page turning excitement, psychological drama, and surreal, layered settings. I set this in my old neighborhood here in Chicago, Wicker Park, so there are a lot of landmarks and places that feel really rich and alive and tense—to me, anyway. I’m excited to get it out there, to see what people think.

Do you think when people lose the points of reference that give them an identity it is easy for them slip over into crime and if so what does that tell us about our perceived notions of crime?

Definitely. When there is no history to attach to your actions, nobody to answer to, people are more likely to act on primal urges—sexual, violent, and otherwise. I think that’s why I was so fascinated in the character study that was my novel, Disintegration. The protagonist, he has no name. I mean, he HAS a name, but we don’t hear it, nobody ever says it. That’s just one more way that he detaches from society, from the rules and obligations that normal people have to live by every day.

I guess that’s why I always try to look past people that are mean, and rude and generally selfish, in the real world. I say to myself, “They must have something going on.” But then again, there is a raw, savage side to myself that I always keep tucked away, just a nugget of coal in the center of my being, just in case I need it. I think that’s why I like the vigilante aspects of Disintegration, and some of my other work, such as “Victimized” about a woman that was molested as a child and has turned into a predator, but somebody that we like to root for because it’s hard to see her as anything other than a victim. Same thing with Dexter, I think. We understand what he’s doing, and even if it would disgust us in the real world, we root for him to kill these horrible people. He, much like my unnamed man in Disintegration, is almost noble in his violence.

The psychology behind violence, behind sex (healthy and otherwise) is something that’s also fascinating to me. There is a bit of bondage and S/M in Disintegration as well. The idea of a dominatrix liking to be in control, at her job, and on stage, but in private she’s screaming out “Punch me in the face when I come.” Is that her surrendering, or her still calling the shots?

We can’t help what gets us off, and sometimes the “taboo” is what pushes you over. Do you surrender and trust, do you allow that knife to slide down your back, your inner thigh? Who is in control, and how do you merge into one pulsing, liquid explosion? I mean, what motivates us? You could say money, or fulfillment, but most people want to share that success with somebody, with lots of people, with someone special, with peers, and with friends. In the dark, we all just want to feel needed, and feel that we have something unique to offer. Maybe that’s a steady job, wearing a suit and tie, dinner at nice restaurants, driving an expensive car. Maybe it’s tattoos and bourbon, playing pool and getting rough in an alley, teeth and bruises and something right on the edge of chaos.

I don’t know. It all seems connected, and what I like most is putting my characters, these people, in tough situations, to see how (or if) they get out of it. What are they made of? That’s much more interesting to me, those transgressions, the suffering, the fight to survive.

Do you think there is no such thing as a straight sadist, rather people addicted to sado-masochism who change positions of domination and submission depending on situation and role?

Well I have to admit that I haven’t gotten THAT question before. I guess I’d say that overall I think we are who we are. For the most part, I think we never change. Obviously we grow up, are in certain environments, and suffer or thrive, evolving into adulthood. But at some point, I think we just aren’t fluid. So, if you are a selfish person, you’ll most likely always be that way. If you have an addictive personality, it will always manifest in one way or another. I think that even the most dominant of personalities has moments of weakness and needs, in order to be human. And the most submissive has ways of rebelling.

As far as sexuality, that seems to be a more elastic trait. Lots of women experiment with other women in college and never do it again after. But then again, there are definitely some fetishists that need that one freaky thing to get off—feet, or pain, or domination, or submission, or something very specific. I also imagine that there are exceptions to every rule, so there are probably people that are complete sadists as well. Not sure how long they survive, but they probably do exist. Some people are so fractured and damaged that they’ll never be whole again, so their lives are not complete, but way off balance, running from one mania to another, or one depression to another. I’d like to say that I’ve seen things that shocked me, and I have, but then again, we all hurt, we all need, we all dream, in one way or another.

The term reality is often used often without meaning. Do you think reality is discontinuous and the universe we inhabit increasingly coded due to technology and excess information?

Huh. Reality, that’s a tricky one. I’ve seen enough strange things in my life to question our reality, I can say that much. I’ve left my body, had time rewind, felt that I was in the presence of a higher power, all kinds of moments that altered how I see time, and life, and eternity. I think in many ways our realities are customized to our histories and our needs. There are times when I’m writing, and I fall into the zone, become a body without organs, and time becomes elastic. I also think that technology does effect how our lives unfold. When I was a child I’d run around my neighborhood, be gone all day, and my mother would ring a large iron bell that was mounted on a pole and I’d come charging down the hill for dinner. We didn’t have play dates I’d just go over to Matt’s house or wander over to whoever had a trampoline or a pool. These days it’s very organized, planned out, everyone is a potential pedophile, and the internet and gaming often replaces true human interaction. I don’t know if we’re evolving or if we’ve become stagnant, or are regressing. I’d like to think that things are getting better, but I’m not sure what that word means. My reality is a ever shrinking circle within which I place those people that I love. And at the same time, a thin layer of myself is being stretched out over the world as I try to expand my global empire of words and images and emotions. I’ve been moved by the work of Philip K. Dick, and films like Blade Runner and The Matrix, that question reality. But some days I think a little cottage in the middle of a grassy field on an island in the middle of the ocean, might be the way to go. I waver back and forth.

What do you make of Deleuze and Guattari’s observation in Anti-Oedipus that ‘It is not the neurotic stretched out on the couch who speaks to us of love, of its force and its despair, but the mute stroll of the schizo. Lenz’s outing in the mountains and under the stars, the immobile voyage in intensities on the body without organs’?

Well, you may have shot this one over my head.

Aren’t we all a bit schizophrenic? We all inhabit a multitude of personalities—how you talk and treat your mother is possibly quite different than the way you treat your co-worker, or the girl you picked up in a bar late last night. We wear many masks. And in order to write, I think you have to not only tap into every personality that you’ve ever held, but also, that of every experience, history, interaction and intensity that has effected you—both real, and virtual. They say that film and television, the dreams we have, they impact us the same as if we had actually done these things. At least, I think I said that right.

In order for me to write, the best work I do is when I lose myself (the real physical, tired, aching, need to piss, hungry body) in order to find something else in my words and on the page. I need to be there, in that alley, smelling the garbage, feeling the heat that pushes off of the bricks, the humidity causing a thin sheen of grimy sweat to coat my skin. You lose yourself for a minute, for an hour.

But, psychoanalysis will also tell you that every character, every emotion, every moment we write, well, it’s all about ourselves anyway. We live out our desires, our fantasies, we seek revenge, we fulfill a need, all in the safe environment of the page (or screen). I think that’s why sometimes when I look back on a story I’ve written I say to myself, “I wrote that? I don’t remember that at all.” Because I wasn’t really there, not Richard, not the guy with brown hair and brown eyes sitting at a desk. No, I lost myself in order to find a moment in time, an epiphany, a truth.

Do you think readers enjoy seeing a character unmasked?

Definitely. And yet, isn’t that the thrill of mystery? Were you upset when you got to the ending of The Wizard of Oz? Kind of. But, I also liked that it brought it back down to earth. We want to see our heroes succeed (and sometimes struggle and fail too). We want to see the worst villains punished, in the most brutal manner. The mask, the anonymity that all plays into it. Super heroes all had secret identities, but then again, we knew who Batman really was, right? I think some things are better left unknown, it allows us to retain hope, to project our own hopes and fears onto the people, places and moments in front of us. I’m trying to think of the most fulfilling novels and films (even television series or shows as well). Do we want it wrapped up in a bow? Whether it was Lost or The Sopranos, how did those endings (open ended, right?) feel? And more importantly, will those feeling last? There almost has to be some room for time, for interpretation, for something else to squeeze in there.

I ended Transubstantiate with a bit of a showdown, and it felt right. But, I did leave it open so that the story could continue. Disintegration, that ending was very unexpected, and it didn’t wrap up anything, and it wandered out into the darkness, still unfurling across the page. But I do like stories and novels that end with everything coming full circle. Memento is one of my favorite films, and it comes back around to the beginning, even if the whole thing is told backwards.

I think we want the ride, we want all of it. Unmasking a character, revealing who they really are, I think that’s just part of the journey. I love that investigation, putting people in tough situations to see how they do. It’s a character study, but it’s also life. And I have to say that I’m often surprised.

There is a rape scene in Disintegration. And I really wasn’t looking forward to writing it, because rape is just a brutal thing, right? But I had to plumb those depths with my unnamed protagonist, and we found his bottom at the same time. It wasn’t easy, and I wasn’t sure how far anything was going to go, but it had to be written. Or at least, the scene had to be played out. Discovery, right? He found out about his depths, and I found out, as the man behind the screen, how far I was willing to take it. And that’s always exciting.

Where do you see yourself in five years, as a writer?

I have a lot of goals, some probably pretty lofty and unattainable, and others that are closer, and within reach.

I’m just finishing up my MFA, have already defended my thesis, and just need to finish my last lit class. So, I’d like to teach for sure.

I really want to place my second novel with the right press, and have a lot of success with it. I mean, I don’t need to sell a million copies, but I’d definitely like to move a few thousand, get some positive responses from my friends, peers and a wide range of publications. If that means I have to land an agent, then I hope that happens. If it means I can do it with small, cool, independent presses, then that’s fine too.

I’m always shopping my short stories, so I just want to keep pushing forward with that, and break through to some of the places that have been elusive—everywhere from Barrelhouse, Monkeybicycle, Hobart and Juked to Needle, Shock Totem, Shroud and GUD to The Missouri Review, Black Warrior Review and The Indiana Review.

And I’ve done some editing in the past, for Colored Chalk and Sideshow Fables, both defunct now.

So in five years I hope to be in a place where I’m publishing my novels and short stories, while teaching creative writing, and editing some sort of publication. That would be ideal.

Thank you Richard for a perceptive and great interview.

Links:

Author website

‘Transubstantiate’ website

‘Transubstantiate’ on Amazon US and UK or see goodreads for other online stores

Find lists of works by Richard Thomas at Amazon and Wikipedia

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